Monday, April 30, 2007

Why is everything negative

Murat over at AmerikanTurk does an extremely good job of postings that provoke discussion, although sometimes it seems he would prefer to just say, please no more!!!

One thing that happens is though is that the comments end up in a he said she said condition where people with entrenched positions be they Muslim/Christian, Turkish/Armenian/Greek end up shouting at each other, trading insults and not listening......and you wonder why he wants to quit!

For a change I thought I would devote a post not to the beautiful game (sic.) but to reasons why and where religion or similar has made a positive contribution.

Where shall we start.

I know how about philosophy. Well the Greeks, and I use that term loosely were the masters of this, many of the cities where the philosophers lived and published were in what is now modern day Turkey but so what it makes no difference to what they said or published.

Architecture. Where to start. Maybe the sun worshipping, incest tolerating Egyptians and the pyramids? Or how about Ayia Sofia in Istanbul consecrated in 576 and built by the Romans because they could and effectively the heart of the Orthodox church until the fall of Constantinople in 1453, whereafter it became a stable and then a mosque. More impressively it was the biggest domed structure in the world until St Peters was built in the 1800's. With the fall of Constantinople the Ottoman empire flowered as did patronage of the arts and the talents of Mimar Sinan came to the worlds attention. The mosque at Edirne being the supreme example. Prior to that and if you research the history of architecture you will see the shifting paterns of development. The Islamic arched window for example was transported back from the "Holy Land" by Crusaders. Military architecture reached a high point with the scientific design of the Krak des Cheavliers and siege warfare became an art that the Islamic armies had to master against their bedouin inspired inclinations which culminated in the breaching of the walls built more than 1000 years before 1453 and still standing today in Istanbul. Between 744 (I think) and 1453 no Muslim army troubled Istanbul, that is a longer period than from 1453 until now...think about that. Excellent book on the subject is "Constantinople, the Last Great Siege" by Crowley. Suffice it to say that religion has influenced most of architecture and given that for centuries the main patrons of architects were religious, government or both that is hardly surprising.

Medicine. For a long while Islamic doctors were streets ahead of western doctors in the diagnoses and treatment of illness, mainly as the catholic church considered prayer the best for of cure and discouraged learning and inquiry. Then for whatever reason scientific inquiry or debate became less tolerated in Islamic circles and western scientist in mainly protestant countries pushed the boundaries of medical science to where they are today with each benefitting from the other. Interestingly in warfare Islamic armies suffered less "camp fever" than western as they understood the link between hygiene and illness which was helped by the necessary ablutions. However it should be noted that most Ottoman armies had their fair share of non-Muslim mercenaries and conscripts who also benefited form the attention to hygiene.

I guess what prompted this post is that I just finished a remarkable book entitled "How the Scots Invented the Modern World" by Arthur Herman. despite being one of the poorest nations in Europe Scotland has produced more than its fair share of free thinkers, scientists, economists etc. whose contribution to what we see around us today should not be overlooked. Why did this happen. Well Scotland benefitted in the 17/1800's from a religious viewpoint that considered "bettering yourself" and education to be of greater import than slavish adherence to a set of rules and edicts issued from Rome. Sunday Schools flourished, illiteracy decreased, Universities were filled with enquiring minds freed from the threat of persecution by Priests who still considered it was heresy to claim the earth was a globe and not flat. Although religion was important in this case it freed the mind and assisted in the invention oif many of the items that have created the world we see around us today. Interestingly another set of non-conformists ,the Quakers, were busily developing the iron and steel industry in Ironbridge in England that would pave the way for the start of the Industrial Revolution that has culminated in me being able to post this blog. It is no coincidence that the countries not controlled by a repressive religion, Britain, with the USA and Germany caught in the wake were at the forefront of this development as challenging the status quo did not lead to ostracim and burning at the stake or equivalent.

My point is this. It is very easy to blame religion for all of the problems, strife, conflict and hatred we see in the World today. But stop and think of the benefits that the atmosphere created at different times and in different parts of the world has created that benefits people today. Turkish Muslims undertaking the haj would not be able to fly from Istanbul to Jeddah on an Airbus or Boeing for example, a nice example of the benefits the muslim world obtains from non muslim developed technology. Cataract removal was being undertaken by Islamic doctors in the 1400's and todays techniques owe alot to that. There are thousands of other examples that illustrate the cross pollination of ideas and practices, these are two I could think of easily as its getting late.

I say lets celebrate our differences, the world would be an incredibly boring place if everyone was the same, but not use those differences as an excuse to kill each other.

9 comments:

Eski Kanka Jim said...

Fine words and sentiments indeed Gulay.

I take your point about Scotland's contribution to the world, even though is was considered a `poor` country in those bad olde days.

We should not forget great Scotsmen such as A G Bell, J L Baird, J MacAdam, A Carnaigie, Dr Fleming, J Watt, etc, who all made giant strides in technology and medicine for the benefit of the world.

We should also not forget that in 2006 Scotland contributed 2 and half Billion Pounds Sterling to the British purse from Whisky sales alone !

Back to the subject of Negatives though, and one thing which we Scots can't be proud of is our religious bigotry.

Unfortunately, it is still being handed down from father to son as can be seen in Glasgow, especially every time Rangers and Celtic play each other !

Visit Glasgow and Belfast on 5 and 12 July and you will see religious hatred at its very worst !

In closing, I think Ankaragucu and Gencler supporters could show how easy it is to extend the hand of friendship to each other !

Anonymous said...

"Turkish bible firm attack kills 3"
45 Comments - Show Original Post
Collapse comments


Anonymous said...
Although I have no idea what could be done, I hope the Turkish government can do something to control the Islamic nationalist fanatics. The Christian minority in Turkey is under siege.

4/18/2007 3:15 PM


the Husband said...
hmm wonder whether there will be 500,000 plus at the funeral with everyone carrying "we are all Christian" posters.........guess not as the rising tide of intolerance and religious bigotry which is gaining tacit approval from the likes of Erdogan is likely to mean that anyone who objects will be hauled up and accused of insulting Turkishness.......as far as I remember apostasy is not a crime in Turkey so if these people were as the report claims undertaking "missionary" work then one has to question just how committed a lot of people in Turkey are to a modern secular state where all religions have freedom......sounds like the Ottoman Empire actually

4/18/2007 9:36 PM


Anonymous said...
Christian" posters.........guess not as the rising tide of intolerance and religious bigotry which is gaining tacit approval from the likes of Erdogan

To take the criminal acts of two idiots and equate that with the entire population of Turkey is just an ignorant statement to make.

Insulting Turkishness, what does that mean exactly?
Those two words are used way too much on this blog as an explanation for everything.

This is not a religious war, don't define it as such.

Again........

guess not as the rising tide of intolerance and religious bigotry which is gaining tacit approval from the likes of Erdogan is likely to mean that anyone who objects will be hauled up and accused of insulting Turkishness.

Do not be so simple minded.

4/18/2007 11:03 PM


Gulay said...
why is that an ignorant statement to make. The ultra Nationalists are setting the agenda in Turkey (Thanks to 301, hence the comment re insulting Turkishness) and the oxygen they are given to suppress anything that might be labeled free speech. Both myself and my wife who is Turkish have noticed the increasing degree of intolerance shown in Turkey towards others be it religious or ethnic as well as the rise in religious feeling that has been spawned as a result of Erdogans attempts (generally failed)to introduce elements of Islamic law to the secular. As these people were Christians and presumably killed by Muslims I fail to see how this can be anything other than religious. Oh and have the courage to give your name rather than hide in anonynimity

4/19/2007 6:12 AM


Anonymous said...
This is a provocation. They want to create further hatred, so there can be a reason to go to a war with Turkey. Continuation of the 'great middle east project'.

4/19/2007 6:44 AM


Anonymous said...
"Anonymous said...
This is a provocation. They want to create further hatred, so there can be a reason to go to a war with Turkey. Continuation of the 'great middle east project'."

So who can go to war??? This was an act of intolerent religious fanatical Moslems, pure and simple.

It was act of war, but against Christains. Moslems wonder why the majority of the non-Moslem world is fearful of and distrust them. It is inhuman, cowardly acts of the few like this that breeds this mistrust. The remainder of the Moslem world needs to take action themselves against hatemongering Imams who spout their diatribe of shit!

I am not a Moslem but have taken to the time to read much of the Koran (I believe that understanding is the key to peace). The Koran doesn't say to kill Christains or any other group because they are "non-believers".

Islam is a religion that preaches peace and acceptence....it's just a bunch of idiots who twist and perevet it to their own agendas.

Stop sporting these idiots and police them yourselves. Maybe then, we can achieve something resembling peace. I know many Moslems and the ones I know are wonderful, warm hearted people.

4/19/2007 9:51 AM


metin said...
"To take the criminal acts of two idiots and equate that with the entire population of Turkey is just an ignorant statement to make."

I agree completely!!!

The same can be applied to the idiot South Korean-American student who killed 30 plus people here in the U.S. It wasn't an Asian vs American event, or one that would place South Koreans as the victimizers.

As blog commenters, or 'blogmentors,' maybe we should take ourselves seriously and be responsible and mature in our comments for all to see, without rushing to judgment.

And since some of us also comment on subject matter irrelevant to the post, how do you all feel this morning now that 'Sanjaya' has been voted off American Idol??

4/19/2007 11:08 AM


Sean said...
This is a very interesting discussion. In the clip of Hrant Dink, (that's used in the movie "Screamers" and available on youtube) he says something like "when you talk to today's Turks, they say that Genocide didn't happen because they are nice people and they know that THEY wouldn't have done it, so it means that THEIR grandparents couldn't have done it."

Here is my question to all of you: do you think these "ultra Nationalists" could have and would have done it? Look at the way they are acting now, with the eyes of the world and all the spotlights pointing at Turkey. They are still murdering in cold blood, without and remorse.

Would THEY have committed the Genocide, specially when no one was watching?

IF the Turkish government or the military TODAY gave the green light to kill all non-Turks or non-Muslims, don't you think THESE ultra Nationalists would run to the streets and start killing immediately? They already have lists of who is who in their neighborhoods and around the country. That's the reason why most Turks who don't agree with them stay silent.

This, my friends, if why WE bring up the past over and over again. We are not trying to destroy Turkey, as some Turks suggest, including Murat in his Open Radio interview, but we are trying to prevent incidents like this.

Today's Turkey is on the brink of a major change. Very soon there will be a clash between the ultra Nationalists and the Modern Turks.

I see 2 likely outcomes: either 1) the Modern Turks will win and send these racists back to the mountains they came from, recognize the past and join EU or 2) the ultra Nationalists will win and send Turkey back 100 years, turn it into another Iraq or Iran, kissing good bye to EU for good.

This is a serious concern, for Turkey and it's neighbors.

4/19/2007 2:01 PM


Sean said...
You know what's amazing about the Turkish government? The fact that they can solve crimes in a matter of hours, sometimes minutes.

They have already arrested 10 people for the bible firm attack!! That's a world record!

The same thing happened when Hrant Dink was killed.

I think the FBI, NYPD, CIA, LAPD, etc. should get trained in Turkey. We have unsolved crimes going back 50 years.

http://washingtontimes.com/world/20070419-014632-7356r.htm

4/19/2007 2:17 PM


Anonymous said...
Muslims do not wonder why the majority of the non muslim world is fearful of and distrust them. They have no time to wonder about that. Because most of the Muslims live under the occupation of non Muslims. They are too busy to stay alive and to be free or to retain their freedom. 700000 Iraqis murdered because of the US invation; most directly by US and UK forces some with their timeless divide and rule tactic. It is decided that it is time for Turkey to be divided and ruled by the West.
You all sit here talk about poor poor Christians under attack in Muslim countries. What a lot of rubbish!
By the way no religion is made to bring peace on earth. They are all the same just to divide us and great excuse to kill each others.

4/19/2007 4:26 PM


Metin said...
Sean:

You make it sound as if the ultra-nationalists or those who are masquerading as 'secular' saviors, and the government (or the 'islamic' tendency cover-uppers but spare no expense to be politically correct no gooders) are the one and the same.

Will the real 'modern' Turks and 'modern' Turkey please reveal yourselves?

4/19/2007 7:01 PM


Sean said...
Metin,

I was not suggesting that at all. In fact, I asked you a question on this very topic on your blog, trying to figure out the differences.

who are the modern Turks? I would say that you are one of them, based on your comments. Murat is also, on a good day, when he is not worried about the Turkish government listening to his every comment. I was disappointed by Murat's unwillingness to speak freely at the Open Radio program. (I know, this was a while ago, but I heard it for the first time yesterday!) I felt that he was holding back, worried about how he would be treated during his next visit to Turkey.

Murat, Metin and other Turks living in the US & Europe, do you still have relatives in Turkey?

If so, do you ever worry if their safety may be compromised based on what you say in US or Europe?

4/19/2007 7:21 PM


Metin said...
Sean:

I do have relatives living in Turkey. And I am not an admirer of Turkey's Article 301 and other 'taboos' in the closet.

Unfortunately, Turkey is not the U.S. But neither are many countries in the World (even within the EU.)

I am an American and I like to call it as I see it. I am, however, worried that our 'civil liberties' are being taken away from us even right here in the U.S. on a daily basis for the sake of 'homeland security' and the 'war' on 'terror.'

Hence, we need to look up the definition of a Republic, which the US is, where individual rights are not compromised at the expense of the majority (like in a Democracy.)

Turkey is confused between a US wants to bring 'democracy' to the region, when democracy oppresses the rights of the minorities, but allows you to speak and protest freely about it.

I too was disappointed by the Open Source program period. But not for Murat's contributions or holding back, but for other reasons, including the professor using profanities, etc. And the lack of 'intelligent' research by the host and his producers in a rush to put out a program of controversy, without regard to the matter at hand at the time.

I think it's not only the minorities (as perceived as Kurds or others) who are mistreated in Turkey. It is the Turks themselves, including the 'religious' minorities (and I include Muslims who can't send their daughters to universities due to the politicized headscarf issue, etc.)

Although I feel that Turkey should not beg to enter the EU (rather it should be the other way around,) I do feel that the 'reforms' necessitated by the road to the EU, as well as the current government's 'politically correct' way of enacting and digesting the reforms should be commended.

Especially given the fact it is nearly impossible to bring about 'real' change in Turkey quickly.

4/19/2007 9:06 PM


the Husband said...
Sean,

I too have family in Turkey and may even possibly end up working there. Am I worried about reprisals for what I post, not really ts one reason that I publish as the Husband but in reality its not too difficult to discover my real identity....Gulay and myself are not big fans of 301, nor of the ultra nationalists setting the agenda as you may have noticed but being scared of repercussions is tantamount to self censorship and that I personally feel is just plain wrong. If anything we have more to fear from the Fener....I mean Kadikoy mobs supporters!!!

Metin, you forgot the Alevis who at 20 million and Muslim in persuasion are also discriminated against....

4/19/2007 9:58 PM


Anonymous said...
"Anonymous said...
Muslims do not wonder why the majority of the non muslim world is fearful of and distrust them. They have no time to wonder about that. Because most of the Muslims live under the occupation of non Muslims. They are too busy to stay alive and to be free or to retain their freedom. 700000 Iraqis murdered because of the US invation; most directly by US and UK forces some with their timeless divide and rule tactic."

That's pure bullshit! The majority are not living under non-Moslems. Alos the majority of Moslem deaths in Iraq are at the hands of other Moslems. get a clue and your facts straigt!

"By the way no religion is made to bring peace on earth. They are all the same just to divide us and great excuse to kill each others."

Again, you have no idea what you are saying. It's the rantings of lunatic religious leaders of all faiths that distort the true meaning....

4/20/2007 3:48 PM


Anonymous said...
'That's pure bullshit! The majority are not living under non-Moslems. Alos the majority of Moslem deaths in Iraq are at the hands of other Moslems. get a clue and your facts straigt!'
Divide and rule...Does not matter who kills who. But who divides who and causes the killing.

4/20/2007 7:20 PM


Anonymous said...
Check out www.thereligionofpeace.com for daily, weekly, monthly and yearly body counts at the hands of muslims. It is not an isolated act as someone here mentioned. Not that all muslims are violent, but a lot of them are. And I'm supposed to give it all a pass as isolated events? How many people did extremist Christians or extremist Hindus kill last week? Come on, the numbers speak.

4/26/2007 9:18 PM


Anonymous said...
These are provocations to enable West to go and kill further Muslis and attack Islamic countries. You are one of those provocators. People who believe you are either ignorant or simple Muslim bashing evil type. At the end of the day the truth is out there, anyone Muslim / Christian / whatever with conscious will not fall into these provocations.

4/27/2007 9:15 AM


mc2 said...
The Pot Calling The Kettle Black ...

Check out world history, and you will discover that more people died in the hands of christians than any other religeon in the world. Look at all the wars thru out history that were started by christian minds. Do I have to remind of the inhumane treatment endured by African-Americans in the hands of god fearing Christian hands. How about Hiroshima, Vietnam, Iraq and the embargo against Cuba.

Not that all christians are violent, but a lot of them are. And I'm supposed to give it all a pass as isolated events?

How many wars werestarted by christians?

How many weopans of mass distruction were designed and used by Muslims and haow many by christians?

How many times has a Muslim knocked on your door on a sunday afternoon trying to convert you to Islam.

4/27/2007 1:27 PM


Anonymous said...
The difference is that Christians (I am not one) knock on your door and talk to you. Muslims blow you up or shoot you. That's the measure of their conversion. "Believe it or else".

As far as history goes, you're way out of bounds. First of all, we all now have the benefit of history to see what damage religion can do, examples being muslim conquest 600-1000, Christian crusades after that and so on. Christianity has taken a back seat in the Western World and has become more a generic 'western' civilization. Religion plays a secondary, perhaps tertiary role for much of the western world.

The same cannot be said of Islam. The lessons of the past have not been seen the same by their lot. Their resolve to universalize and cling to religion has only grown stronger.

Nukes were not created in the name of religion. They were created to win a war against a country that had attacked us.

Islam needs to clean up its own house. America cleaned up its own house in 1776 when it expelled its own foreign oppressors. It's time the muslims do the same and stop wasting their energies blaming everyone else.

4/27/2007 10:32 PM


Anonymous said...
First,
'The difference is that Christians (I am not one) knock on your door 'and talk to you. Muslims blow you up or shoot you. That's the measure of their conversion. "Believe it or else".'
Rubbish. You are obviously incredibly biased. That's what you want to believe.... They also want you to believe in this rubbish. You just obey to the system and its rubbish media. To question things require intelligence...

Second,
'As far as history goes, you're way out of bounds. First of all, we all now have the benefit of history to see what damage religion can do, examples being muslim conquest 600-1000, Christian crusades after that and so on. Christianity has taken a back seat in the Western World and has become more a generic 'western' civilization. Religion plays a secondary, perhaps tertiary role for much of the western world.'
More rubbish, Christianity uses other religions to provoke within to create wars....

More and more rubbish;

'Nukes were not created in the name of religion. They were created to win a war against a country that had attacked us.'
Nukes created to exercise power, gain resources. What do you do is stir up whatever the religion or ethnicity around the region with goodies start up a war and then threaten everyone with the nukes.

'Islam needs to clean up its own house.'
Wow! Islam is not a country not an institution. It is a complex worldwide belief system. It has not got segretive power structure like Christianity. This is the biggest spin in the world. Muslims are just simply evil. Well, hilly billies like yourself buy that...
By the way who sponsors Al-Quaida anyway? And Hizbullah, etc?

'America cleaned up its own house in 1776 when it expelled its own foreign oppressors.'

You mean US, America is a continent did you know that? And that of US does not know the meaning of the word clean. Their beginnings based on complete filth, death, destruction of native Americans. And that's what I call holocaust.

4/28/2007 2:26 PM


mc2 said...
By the way who sponsors Al-Quaida anyway? And Hizbullah, etc?

America has created these terrorist with its politics and the fabrication of the state of Israel. I'm sorry that you can't see that.

Hating Muslims is another christian witch hunt. Why is it that christian groups always are in the need of an enemy. Why is it that your incapable of respecting other peoples ideologies and cultures, and are so willing to enforce your own beliefs. First it was the comunist now Muslims.

Let me remind you that the atomic bomb was dropped two days after Japan put up its white flag. Why?

To take the actions of a tiny fraction of Muslims and suggest that it is reflection of all Muslims is just ignorant.

History has taught you nothing and will continue making a hypocrite of those who beleive it holds any value.

4/28/2007 2:48 PM


Anonymous said...
Very well said mc2. Totally agree. When I ask the question who sponsors Al-Q, Hizb, etc I actually wasn't asking, but telling that US sponsors them, I agree %100 of everything you say.

4/28/2007 3:02 PM


Anonymous said...
Fascist America in 10 easy steps.

http://alternet.org/waroniraq/51150/

4/28/2007 4:10 PM


Anonymous said...
Some things are what they are. Muslims have no institution? What about the theocratic governments across the middle east such as Iran, Egypt and Saudi Arabia? I suppose these are models of great governments. Oh, yeah, that's right. It's the US's fault that they exist. I'm sorry, I forgot my "blame America for every problem" mantra that you people spout.

Your religion conquered hordes of innocent people over the years, not unlike Westerners' conquering of the American Indians. "Believe it or else" is Mohammed's way. I'm not saying the US has some angel's halo over its head, but it's time muslims stop speaking as if they are peaceful and non-violent in the 'holier-than-thou' religious tone.

Some things are what they are. Calling me a 'hill billy' or dismissing substantiated statements as 'rubbish' reveals this simplicity and your desire to deny the evil forces of Islam in the world today.

From what I can tell, the muslim world on the whole takes little if no responsibility for its actions or its problems. It's always someone else's fault.

Your facts on WWII are completely falsified too. A little too much Al Jazeera perhaps? I guess that Kool Aid would make you believe things like "America is responsible for creating Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc."

Please.

4/28/2007 8:39 PM


az said...
How funny you are.

4/28/2007 11:04 PM


Anonymous said...
'Some things are what they are. Muslims have no institution? What about the theocratic governments across the middle east such as Iran, Egypt and Saudi Arabia?'
They are theocratic goverments as you said it. Meaning that the God is the boss, they are not institution as a Westerner understand. Institutionalise everything and make profit out of it is a Western practice. And no, they are not models of great governments. But it the US's fault that they keep on existing.
You should be sorry, that you forgot my "blame America for every problem". Never forget. It is the ordinary dummy US citisens and their instutitions responsibility
not to disrupt the world peace. Not to be agressive.

"Believe it or else" is Mohammed's way. I'm not saying the US has some angel's halo over its head, but it's time muslims stop speaking as if they are peaceful and non-violent in the 'holier-than-thou' religious tone.

That is not Mohammed's way. It's G.W Bush's way. Do you except and take responsibility?

'Some things are what they are. Calling me a 'hill billy' or dismissing substantiated statements as 'rubbish' reveals this simplicity and your desire to deny the evil forces of Islam in the world today.'
I don't know who you are, you are anonymous as far as I'm concern. So don't take it personally.
Ther are no evil forces in this world. Ofcourse it will be good excuse for certain greedy quartes to attack group of people and countries if theer is an evil force. Than you create AlQ,etc. By the way they don't tell these in Al-Jazira.

'It's always someone else's fault.'
Remember it is US government to blame. Hilly billies are simple sheep. They are not evil but ignorant like yourself.

4/29/2007 6:36 AM


Anonymous said...
I am anonymous to protect myself. These things need to be said, but I would rather die of 'natural' causes and not have to hire bodyguards to get there. Those who speak the truth about Islam often end up in that position. The Van Gogh gentleman in Holland got a bullet through his head for mere words against Islam. Go figure.

Go back and read your history books. Muhammed lived by the sword. Violence from the beginning. The ends justify the means.

The US buys oil from the middle east. What the crooked governments do with it is their business. Always the victim. We are businessmen, borne out of something called the 'Enlightenment' and 'Reformation'. Ever read that in your muslim history books? It's how Westerners grew tired of religious fanaticism back in the middle ages and got on with life on earth.

Your muslim brethren should read up on it. It teaches a lot. It's quite clear the muslim world is still stuck in the dark ages. Too bad for the rest of us who have to live with the suicide bombers and 'martyrs'.

4/29/2007 11:29 PM


Anonymous said...
Oh yeah, check this out:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/04/29/iranian.haricuts.reut/index.html

Seems the Iranian government tells its people how to cut their hair. I guess that's Bush's fault too.

4/29/2007 11:31 PM


Anonymous said...
Yeah yeah.... Stir it up. More and more spin.. Evil Muslims, lovely civilized Christians blah blah..So scared to give your name you sad paranoid little rabbit. No one cares who you are and what you think anyway...

4/30/2007 5:24 AM


az said...
You are ridiculous.
Protect yourself from what? Your bloody own ignorance!

4/30/2007 10:11 AM


mc2 said...
Loving Your Neighbour? – Killing Your Opponents!

Christians get a lot of mileage out of the aphorism of 'turning the other cheek', a sentiment originating at least as early as Pythagoras in the fifth century BC. Yet both in theory and in practice, Christians have honoured the principle of murdering their opponents. The word, it seems, came from the very top. Apparently Jesus himself said:


"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
– Luke 19.27 *

The Christian Heaven may have been a vain folly but the Christian Hell was real enough. For more than a thousand years sadists in the uniform of Christ terrorised and brutalised a continent and then exported that terror to the four corners of the globe.

The Church, which, with a satanic twist of humour, claimed to be the instrument of 'Christ's loving kindness' , taught a brutalised and impoverished people new meanings to the words pain and suffering...

4/30/2007 12:52 PM


Anonymous said...
gamze = az

4/30/2007 2:50 PM


Anonymous said...
anonymous = sean

4/30/2007 3:33 PM


Sean said...
anonymous #2 = murat

4/30/2007 5:14 PM


Murat Altinbasak said...
Sean, The only reason I'm commenting now is that you have used my name in a derogatory way, and I happened to notice from the "Recent comments" sidebar. NEVER have I commented anonymously on my own blog, or anyone else's blog. Shame on you for suggesting it.

4/30/2007 6:07 PM


Sean said...
Murat, which part of "anonymous #2 = murat" is derogatory??? Who needs to calm down now?

I admit, I posted as anonymous "gamze = az". I did that, knowing that Murat will know I was the one posting, based on my IP address. I ASSUMED Murat posted the response, since he is the only one who would have access to the IP addresses. If it wasn't Murat, then I was wrong, but there is nothing derogatory in what I said.

I still stand by my original comment.

4/30/2007 6:53 PM


Murat Altinbasak said...
If you think I have time to look at IP addresses and try to figure out who's who, you're wrong.
Also, my Sitemeter is OPEN for all to see the IP addresses.
If you stand by your original comment, and insist that I ever posted anonymously, you are being derogatory, because you are calling me a liar. I've never posted anonymously, ever. If you choose not to believe me, that's fine.
Am I all F-ed up here? or is there another Murat who you are referring to?

4/30/2007 7:10 PM


Sean said...
Murat, you misunderstood what I said. I stand by my original comment that "gamze = az". I am not calling you a liar.

I didn't know your Sitemeter is open.

4/30/2007 7:51 PM


Gulay said...
As usual this descends into the Muslims are evil or Christians are evil depending on your personal viewpoint. What is very sad though is the appalling ignorance shown by the various anonymous commentators on World and Religious history. As a muslim it pains me to read some of the comments that I beleive were posted by a muslim as one of the anonymous posters here. It seems like that person who whilst criticising others as anyonyomous also remained anonymous has swallowed the bad America evil mantra spouted by all the failed Islamic governments, the French and other people desperate to deflect criticism of themselves onto someone else and not take responsibility for the results of their own actions. Does it matter who has killed more? No. Understanding of history should help in avoiding conflicts in the future, unfortunately with the desperate need of some nations to prove they are guardians of some kind of right, Russia, Iran etc. to counterbalance what they perceive as the "evil" American empire the lessons of the past get trampled underfoot. I am no apologist for the actions of the US or anyone else but why this urge always to pin labels and blame on someone else??? and then kill them because they disagree with you.

And Sean, grow up. Accusing Murat of being anonymous is sad...at least he has the guts as you do to post under his own name unlike many of the others here

4/30/2007 8:03 PM


Anonymous said...
Buffoons. I told you I'm non-religious. I'm a secular Westerner. Many in the Western world are devoid or distanced from religion. The notion of separation of church and state has been around for 100 years.

Muslims tend to see the world in religious terms. Since I am critical of modern Islam, you assume I am a Christian. Everything is a religious crusade to muslims.

4/30/2007 11:00 PM


Metin said...
Aren't the 'secular' elite in Turkey also Muslim???

Or is there a deeper issue here? Maybe they're the great grand children of 'converts' who were forced into Islam . . . Anyone know?

5/01/2007 1:44 AM


Gulay said...
Anonymous. I really wish you would be brave enough to use a name and stop using insults so that when people respond they can be sure the right people understand what is being said. Read my comments, I do not assume you are anything, if anything my comtempt was for the other anonymous who is a muslim and as I believe has swallowed the "anti west" propaganda hook line and sinker. As I said I am a muslim, but do not want the secular nature of Turkey to be changed. To me religion is a personal choice and not an instrument of state. I am sure there are a lot of similar minded people in Turkey as indicated by the rallies over the last couple of weeks, I cannot speak for other countries. As for seeing your comments as an attack on Islam, instead of insulting me tell me where did I say that?

5/01/2007 5:20 AM


Anonymous said...
I don't know how many anonymous there, and how many of them are anti-Muslim or anti-US or whatever. I also don't think giving your name or any name is bravery at all. The beauty of this blog is that you can make a statement and be anonymous. So that no one can stamp you as anti- whatever or pro-whatever. Because nothing or no one is black or wight. The words are the important part of the discussion, not the personalities.

5/01/2007 6:26 AM


Anonymous said...
I don't know how many anonymous there, and how many of them are anti-Muslim or anti-US or whatever. I also don't think giving your name or any name is bravery at all. The beauty of this blog is that you can make a statement and be anonymous. So that no one can stamp you as anti- whatever or pro-whatever. Because nothing or no one is black or white. The words are the important part of the discussion, not the personalities.

Anonymous said...

Sean said...
Two Jewish leaders show their support for the Armenian Genocide:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-myers1may01,0,2074553.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

5/01/2007 4:02 AM

Anonymous said...

This is your Turkey
I am going to post articles about Turkey, taken from international sources. The purpose is not to shame or embarrass Turkey. My purpose is to start discussions about the different issues facing Turkey. I would like to read and understand the Turkish views on the Turkish issues. I would like the Turks to read and understand the views of others on the Turkish issues.

Tuesday, May 1, 2007
Two Jewish leaders speak in support of the Genocide

'Never again' for Armenians too
Several American Jewish groups abandon their anti-genocide zeal when it comes to Turkey's massacre of Armenians.

By Daniel Sokatch and David N. Myers,
DANIEL SOKATCH is executive director of the Progressive Jewish Alliance.
DAVID N. MYERS teaches Jewish history at UCLA.
May 1, 2007

THIS YEAR, Congress established April 15 as Holocaust Memorial Day, commemorating the Nazi genocide of European Jewry. Just nine days later, on April 24, Armenians throughout the world observed the commemoration of their great tragedy: the massacre of as many as 1.5 million Armenians at the hands of the Turks that began in 1915.

In many ways, it was the 20th century's first genocide that helped set the stage for its largest, including Rwanda and now Darfur. Adolf Hitler reportedly said, on the eve of his invasion of Poland in 1939, "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"

Click here to read the entire article:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-myers1may01,0,2074553.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

Posted by Sean at 12:52 AM 0 comments Links to this post

Labels: Armenian Genocide, Jewish, Turkey


Monday, April 30, 2007
Is Frantz about to issue a public apology?

According to this article (see last paragraph), Frantz has been ordered to make a public apology. I guess that leaves 2 unanswered questions:

1. Will Frantz follow the orders and apologies, possibly putting his life in danger, since he lives in Turkey?

2. Will his forced apology be enough for the Armenian community, which has been demanding that the LA Times fire Frantz.

http://www.laobserved.com/archive/2007/04/arax_drops_a_bomb.php

Posted by Sean at 3:30 PM 0 comments Links to this post

Labels: Armenian Genocide, Frantz, LA Times, Mark Arax, Turkey


Genocide exhibit opens at U.N. after compromise reached on killings of Armenians

What did the Turkish government gain by postponding the Genocide exhibit at the UN? Hundreds of newspapers from around the world wrote articles on the topic, educating the public about the Armenian Genocide. All the Turkish government got was 2 changes.

What's the difference between "murders" and "mass killings"? I would think that "mass killings" would be worse for the Turks. I don't have an issue with the use of "Ottoman Empire". It's all the same to me.

=========================
Genocide exhibit opens at U.N. after compromise reached on killings of Armenians

UNITED NATIONS: An exhibit on the 1994 Rwanda genocide opened Monday at U.N. headquarters after organizers recast a section on the killings of a million Armenians in Turkey during World War I — a reference that angered the Turks.

The exhibit, originally set to open April 9, was postponed after a Turkish diplomat complained about the mention of the Armenian murders. The section now uses the term "mass killings" instead of "murders," does not include the number of people killed, and replaces "Turkey" with "Ottoman Empire."

Read the entire article here:
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/04/30/news/UN-GEN-UN-Genocide-Dispute.php#

Posted by Sean at 3:24 PM 0 comments Links to this post

Labels: Armenian Genocide, Turkey, UN


Friday, April 27, 2007
Turkey Should Confess Armenian and Bulgarian Genocides

Turkey Should Confess Armenian and Bulgarian Genocides
Published on: 27.04.2007, 11:22
Author: Olga Yoncheva

For official recognition of the Armenian genocide committed by the Turkish state and army in the period 1915-1918, insist 45 Bulgarian intellectuals and public figures in a declaration distributed by BTA.In the declaration the intellectuals insist also on the recognition of the genocide of Bulgarians in 1903-1913.

According to the authors of the document, Turkey should take the responsibility and should apologize for the 5-century yoke over Bulgarians, for the committed crimes and mass murders of the Bulgarians, who lived in its territories due to the Berlin contract. It should also compensate the refugees' heirs for their suffering and the stolen property.

The declaration continues that the contemporary Turkish state, which emphasizes itself as heir of the Ottoman Empire and seeks its 700-century “cultural and historical heritage” in a number of states including Bulgaria, should consider itself morally obliged to admit the committed genocides against Bulgarians, Armenians, Assyrians and other nations.

“We call for the Bulgarian parliament to follow the example and the active measures of the international community and of influential constitutional bodies around the world, which recognized the international crime “Armenian genocide”.

Among these countries are: Switzerland, Poland, Slovakia, Lebanon, Canada, Argentina, Germany, Belgium, France, Netherlands, Italy, Greece, Uruguay, Sweden, Russia, Venezuela, Cyprus, Ukraine, the Vatican, Lithuania and more than 30 US states, concludes the document. The declaration will be submitted to the Armenian embassy in Bulgaria and to the Human Rights Committee of the European parliament.

Signatories of the document are: prof. Georgi Markov, prof. Georgi Bakalov, Lyubka Rondova, Ivan Granitski, Anton Donchev, Leda Mileva, Lilyana Stefanova, Acad. Vassil Gyuzelev, Michail Konstantinov, prof. Grisha Ostrovski, prof. Krikor Azaryan, prof. Sarkis Sarkisyan, prof. Norair Nurikyan, Angel Vagenstein, Haigashot Agassyan.

http://international.ibox.bg/news/id_653001855

Posted by Sean at 9:58 AM 7 comments Links to this post

Labels: Armenian Genocide, Bulgeria, Turkey


So-called historians in Turkey are fooling no one!

Truth of mass grave eludes Swedish professor
Friday, April 27, 2007

ONUR BURÇAK BELLİ
ISTANBUL - Turkish Daily News

An investigation to clarify conflicting claims about the origins of a mass grave found near the city of Mardin last year in Turkey's southeast ended in disappointment this week as historians traded accusations and a Swedish expert denounced the excavation as an “expensive picnic.”

The grave first came to light last October when villagers in the district of Nusaybın reported that they had found a mass grave near the village of Kuru. Turkish historians insisted that the grave dated back to Roman times while some Westerners claimed it could be a mass burial site of Armenians, killed around 1915 in a series of massacres that remain the subject of red hot controversy today.

After the weekly news magazine Nokta published photos of the site and international news agencies picked up the story, Sweden's Soderton University demanded an investigation.

Refusing collaboration:

Professor David Gaunt of Soderton, accompanied by Yusuf Halaçoğlu, the President of the Turkish Association of Historians (TTK), arrived at the burial site together last Tuesday, April 24. The date is a symbolic day for Armenians who commemorate “genocide” on that day, a characterization disputed by most Turkish and many international scholars.

....

The Swedish professor expressed his disillusionment, describing what happened as “childish.”

“This is the most expensive picnic I have ever attended," concluded the professor.

Click here for the entire article.

Posted by Sean at 12:59 AM 0 comments Links to this post

Labels: Armenian Genocide, David Gaunt, Mass grave, Turkey


Thursday, April 26, 2007
Shift in Genocide discussion

Over the past couple of years, the discussion about the Armenian Genocide has experience a significant shift. Few years ago, all the articles written in the western media were asking "whether what happened was a Genocide". Now, after many historians (including some Turks) and governments have clearly stated that it was a Genocide, the discussion has become "now that we know it was a Genocide, should we recognize it and risk having problems with the Turkish government".

Here is an example from today's Jewish newspaper.

I am a realist. I know that a major international decision like the recognition of the Armenian Genocide will take time. And the clock didn't start ticking until a few years ago, when Armenians became more and more involved in the politics of the nations where they live, and started voicing their concerns.

Recognizing that this shift has taken place is important, because it shows that the dialog is moving in the right direction. It's only a matter to time before Turkey will officially recognize the Genocide and issue a public apology, making all the denialist books & authors the butt-of-all-jokes.

Posted by Sean at 11:26 AM 1 comments Links to this post

Labels: Armenian Genocide, Turkey


Feelings and Frustrations

This article, written about an American Diplomat, gives a good roadmap to what one goes thru when he or she decided to conduct an independent research into the Armenian Genocide. No matter if the person is Armenian or not, the feelings and frustrations associated with Turkish denial are the same.

If you read the article, you will better understand why we spend so much time and energy fighting for recognition.

Posted by Sean at 10:58 AM 0 comments Links to this post

Labels: Armenian Genocide, Evans, Henry Morgenthau, Turkey, USA


Tuesday, April 24, 2007
Turkey is Washington's purest test of realism v. idealism

Turkey is Washington's purest test of realism v. idealism.
Name Calling
by Christopher Beam
Post date 04.25.07

In recent years, President Bush has had no trouble using the word "genocide"--first in reference to Saddam, then to the killings in Darfur. The word connotes a moral imperative to intervene, perhaps because of its reductio ad Hitlerum quality--how can you stand idly by during a genocide? But, when discussing the million-plus Armenians killed in Turkey between 1915 and 1923, President Bush, like President Clinton before him, has avoided the word entirely.

That's because, unlike other questions of who killed whom that the United States has answered over last decades (Iraq, twice in the Balkans, Rwanda, Sudan), there is a strategic reason to stay mum about the Armenians: Turkey, a NATO ally of 50 years and a partner in the war on terrorism, would get mad. According to Ankara, only 300,000 died, and only because its government suppressed uprisings provoked by the crumbling Ottoman Empire. (Samantha Power dedicated the first chapter of her Pulitzer Prize-winning book on genocide to debunking this myth.) The Turks recognize the dispute and want "further study," but in the meantime, they really don't want to be known as perpetrators of genocide.

Click here for the entire article.

Posted by Sean at 10:53 PM 0 comments Links to this post

Labels: Armenian Genocide, Bush, Turkey, USA


How far can Turkish influence go?

How far can Turkish influence go?
There was an article in the Palm Beach Post that was titled "Wexler blasted for opposing Armenian genocide resolution" and posted on April 24th.

Less than 4 hours later, a much shorter and watered down version was posted. I wouldn't think much of it, except the title has been changed to "Challenger blasts Wexler over stance on 1915 massacre".

If the Post was merely trying to save space and summarize the earlier article, WHY DID THEY CHANGE THE TITLE? Even if they wanted to change the title, why did they drop the word 'genocide'?

Go ahead, change the title of the article, see if it makes a difference.

Posted by Sean at 9:49 PM 0 comments Links to this post

Labels: Armenian Genocide, Graber, Turkey, Wexler


Wexler blasted for opposing Armenian genocide resolution

Wexler blasted for opposing Armenian genocide resolution
By LARRY LIPMAN
Palm Beach Post Washington Bureau
Tuesday, April 24, 2007

WASHINGTON — It's an issue that is splitting the Jewish community and has entered a South Florida congressional primary: How can a Jewish congressman not recognize the 1915 massacre of possibly 1.5 million Armenian civilians as genocide? The issue was raised Tuesday - recognized by many countries as Armenian Genocide Memorial Day - by Ben Graber, a former state representative and former Broward County mayor who plans to challenge U.S. Rep. Robert Wexler of Delray Beach in next year's Democratic primary.

Graber, who is Jewish and the son of Holocaust survivors, called Wexler an "embarrassment" to the Jewish community for opposing a resolution in the House of Representatives that recognizes the killing and deportation of Armenians under the Ottoman Empire as genocide.

Click here to read the rest of this article.

Posted by Sean at 5:36 PM 0 comments Links to this post

Labels: Armenian Genocide, Florida, Graber, Jewish, Turkey, Wexler


Another Turkish trick ... and they claim the archives are open

This was an attempt by a Turkish historian and a Swedish historian to get to the truth on this one specific issue. What happened? Turkey either took the Swedish historian to the wrong site or they completely cleaned the site before they allowed him to examine it.

This is the prefect example of why Armenians don't trust the so-called opening of the archives by the Turks. Every documents that is open for examination has been examined and reexamined over and over again, to make sure no incriminating evidence is left.

You don't believe me? How do you explain this very article, from a Turkish newspaper, proving that the Turks are destroying evidence in this very day?

The historian is Swedish, not Armenian, so you can't accuse him of lying. In fact, the Turks were the ones that agreed to let him examine the site. If they had thought that he was not credible, they wouldn't have agreed to it.

Another attempt by the Turks to cover up the Truth has backfired. Turkish government may think that they are fooling people, but the only fools here are the ones calling the shots in Turkey. No one, not even Turks, are being fooled, thanks to the free information available on the net. No wonder the Turkish government wants to block all websites that contain information they don't agree with. They just want to keep their people blind and deaf.

============================

Opening of mass grave fails to satisfy historian

Yusuf Halaçoğlu of the Turkish Historical Society (TTK) and historian David Gaunt of Södertörns University College in Sweden in a collaborative effort opened a mass grave on Monday in the southeastern town of Nusaybin, which Armenian historians say may contain the remains of victims of the 1915 genocide of Armenians at the hands of the Ottoman Empire.

Nevertheless the endeavor didn't seem to be satisfactory for Gaunt, who refused to collect earth or bone samples from the grave.

Speaking to reporters following an examination of the site, Halaçoğlu said Gaunt told him that the grave they had exposed was not the one he had planned to analyze, causing Gaunt to refuse to collect any samples. Halaçoğlu, who argues that the remains are from Roman times, however, said he had collected samples, which would be scientifically analyzed.

The mass grave in Nusaybin was discovered by villagers in August 2006. The area where the mass grave lies is on an ancient line of defense works and underground storage rooms dating back to Roman times.

Gaunt expressed disappointment at a joint press conference following the grave opening. "My impression is that this grave is one in which no scientific research can be carried out. The grave has undergone numerous changes so it is not recognizable. Consequently, I have to say that this grave is not suitable for scientific research. As a result, we can say nothing but that this grave is not the one we intended to research." However, Gaunt added that this could be a start for joint research with Halaçoğlu in the future.

25.04.2007
Today's Zaman with wires Ankara

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=109390&bolum=102

Posted by Sean at 4:28 PM 0 comments Links to this post

Labels: Armenian Genocide, David Gaunt, Mass grave, Turkey


Monday, April 23, 2007
Turkish newspapers think that Turks are clueless

Turkish newspapers think that Turks are CLUELESS. That must be the case. Otherwise, why would 2 of them print the same article insulting the intelligence of their readers.

Here is the article I am talking about: http://english.sabah.com.tr/C4213D15C63E4289B5DA3DDB290E142A.html
and here:
http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=44436

The Turkish Weekly and Sabah must think that their readers, who are presumably mostly Turks, don't know anything and will believe everything they read.

Would you like me to prove it? I will be happy to.

In this article, they claim that "a Swedish commander staying in Anatolia as observer refuted Armenian genocide claims in a letter he wrote in 1917. Commander says: 'as an eye witness, I object to genocide claims.'"

Do you see the problem? If not, then I guess you are the type of reader that these papers are hoping to trick.

Every Turk and Armenian, who can spell his own name, knows that the word "genocide" was created in 1943 by Raphael Lemkin.

Therefore, HOW IS IT POSSIBLE that in 1917 this so-called commander wrote a letter and said "I OBJECT TO GENOCIDE CLAIMS"? The word itself wasn't going to be created until 26 years later!! How many people would fall for this cheap trick? This article is a pour fabrication, just like all the arguments against the Armenian Genocide.

I can't believe that they would print this obvious lie on the eve of April 24th!!

Go ahead, try to defend this one. Tell me how this was a lost-in-translation problem. Even if that's true...

A person living in 1917 would not have realized that he or she was in the middle of a Genocide. A genocide, by its very nature, is not something that you can recognize after 1 day or 1 month. You have to look at the bigger picture, analyze the extend of it, look at the intent. This is the reason why the Genocide in Sudan was not talked about much until recently.

Just look at all the Jews who boarded the trains during WWII, not realizing that the train was headed towards a camp. They even went into the chambers, thinking that they were about to take a shower!!

Somehow, the so-called historians from Turkey, have discovered a letter 92 years later, written by a so-called commander, who happened to look at the big picture and state "as an eye witness, I object to genocide claims."

"eye witness?" - Eye witness to what? Did he travel to all the different cities where the Armenians were being murdered, conducted research, and made an observation of his eye witness account?

"I object" - what was he objecting to? did he think he was in court? who talks like that?

"genocide claims" - the Armenians in 1917 were not making genocide claims. they were too busy trying to stay alive. To suggested that in 1917 the genocide claims had already come to light and were being objected to is ridiculous by itself, even if we assume that the word "genocide" was already being used by this person who was well ahead of his time.

I will repeat my claim: Turkish newspapers think that Turkish readers are clueless. Only a clueless person would fall for this one. It would have been better if they had printed this article on April 1, for April Fools Day!

How can readers believe ANYTHING these papers write, when it's clear that they are willing to say anything, as long as it's to their advantage, no matter how blatantly wrong they are.

Posted by Sean at 11:39 PM 0 comments Links to this post

Labels: Armenian Genocide, Turkey


Don't worry, nothing happened on Apr. 24

Here is an interesting article from today's Turkish Daily News.

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=71458

Posted by Sean at 11:13 PM 0 comments Links to this post

Labels: Armenian Genocide, Turkey


Merkel troubled by intolerance in Turkey

German Chancellor Angela Merkel, whose country holds the rotating presidency of the European Union, said she was troubled by an "unacceptable intolerance" in Turkey, a membership candidate.

Read the entire article here:
http://www.cathnews.com/news/704/117.php

It's refreshing to see people jailed in Turkey for crimes they committed, not for the words they used.

Anonymous said...

Here enjoy your buddy.

Oz Kanka said...

Well, I think I would have liked tıo contribute here but I doubt anyone would see what I wanted to say following the cut and paste jobs from other blogs. Please, there really is no need to do that, no matter what the points of view are.

Sean said...

This is the reason why I had to moderate the comments on my blog. The same person (and I know who it is) did the same to my blog.

Very mature.

Gulay said...

Anonymous, thank for your comment which contribute precisely nothing.

Murat Altinbasak said...

Regrets that someone polluted your fine words with crap from my site. Thanks for the link. Hope you intend to mix it up subject-wise more often.